http://forum.srilankaequity.com/t31532-sec-amendments-to-listing-rules#185748
At last the loop-hole has been plugged.
Last edited by K.Haputantri on Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Last edited by K.Haputantri on Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Hapu Sir, with all due respect, what i am trying to say is that the concept or thought of loop-holes and undue profits was never there in real time in May 2011, the IPO time. only now over 2 years later, looking back, we feel that no lock in period rule is unfair and was a loop hole and that is because of what happened during some IPO''s in 2011. same with undue profits. at that time nobody questioned the pricing of the IPO and happily subscribed. It is only now over 2 years later when the price is half the IPO price that we are saying that EXPO owners earned undue profits due to pricing and retailers got fleeced.K.Haputantri wrote:If a person is God fearing he should never ever creep through loop-holes and earn undue profits. Its like outright fleecing of the gulliable retailers.
Well said mate.The Alchemist wrote:Hapu Sir, with all due respect, what i am trying to say is that the concept or thought of loop-holes and undue profits was never there in real time in May 2011, the IPO time. only now over 2 years later, looking back, we feel that no lock in period rule is unfair and was a loop hole and that is because of what happened during some IPO''s in 2011. same with undue profits. at that time nobody questioned the pricing of the IPO and happily subscribed. It is only now over 2 years later when the price is half the IPO price that we are saying that EXPO owners earned undue profits due to pricing and retailers got fleeced.K.Haputantri wrote:If a person is God fearing he should never ever creep through loop-holes and earn undue profits. Its like outright fleecing of the gulliable retailers.
the point i'm trying to make is that we are judging these events much later, in hindsight, and casting judgments on events that were considered fair at that time i.e. may 2011.
The IPO was supervised by SEC, Placed by JK etc and endorsed by JKH & Carsons who are major shareholders todate. If nobody thought it was fair at that time, why was issue so oversubscribed ?
we only judge it to be unfair now, due to various other events, in hindsight.
Human nature in share trading is such that when things go wrong in hindsight, we feel that we have been fleeced and were gullible. But when things go right in the market, we wont stop for a second and think that perhaps somebody (the seller whom we bought it from) may have gotten fleeced !
In the EXPO case, for eg, if the share was Rs 30 today, will it be fair for Expo owners who sold their shares at Rs 14 in the IPO to feel that they were fleeced by retailers ?
The Alchemist wrote:Hapu Sir, with all due respect, what i am trying to say is that the concept or thought of loop-holes and undue profits was never there in real time in May 2011, the IPO time. only now over 2 years later, looking back, we feel that no lock in period rule is unfair and was a loop hole and that is because of what happened during some IPO''s in 2011. same with undue profits. at that time nobody questioned the pricing of the IPO and happily subscribed. It is only now over 2 years later when the price is half the IPO price that we are saying that EXPO owners earned undue profits due to pricing and retailers got fleeced.K.Haputantri wrote:If a person is God fearing he should never ever creep through loop-holes and earn undue profits. Its like outright fleecing of the gulliable retailers.
the point i'm trying to make is that we are judging these events much later, in hindsight, and casting judgments on events that were considered fair at that time i.e. may 2011.
The IPO was supervised by SEC, Placed by JK etc and endorsed by JKH & Carsons who are major shareholders todate. If nobody thought it was fair at that time, why was issue so oversubscribed ?
we only judge it to be unfair now, due to various other events, in hindsight.
Human nature in share trading is such that when things go wrong in hindsight, we feel that we have been fleeced and were gullible. But when things go right in the market, we wont stop for a second and think that perhaps somebody (the seller whom we bought it from) may have gotten fleeced !
In the EXPO case, for eg, if the share was Rs 30 today, will it be fair for Expo owners who sold their shares at Rs 14 in the IPO to feel that they were fleeced by retailers ?
i am not offended. i am not even a shareholder. i am not a related party of EXPO. in fact, today is the first time i have mentioned expo on forum !ccsentha wrote:This is not to offend you mate, but are u a related party of EXPO trying to support their shaky activities?
Company with good directors follow good company ethics, EXPO clearly didn't have any good ethics with their IPO. (may be public lost money because they were not smart)
If expo really wanted to do an ethical genuine sale of their companies, they would done it in a more transparent way but as it stands many people don't know any info about it.
http://www.expolanka.com/expo_lanka/international_trading_manufacturing/expolanka_commodities.aspx
http://www.expolanka.com/expo_lanka/international_trading_manufacturing/lanka_premier_foods.aspx
Even Net assets would be very high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, I do not own EXPO.The Alchemist wrote:i am not offended. i am not even a shareholder. i am not a related party of EXPO. in fact, today is the first time i have mentioned expo on forum !ccsentha wrote:This is not to offend you mate, but are u a related party of EXPO trying to support their shaky activities?
Company with good directors follow good company ethics, EXPO clearly didn't have any good ethics with their IPO. (may be public lost money because they were not smart)
If expo really wanted to do an ethical genuine sale of their companies, they would done it in a more transparent way but as it stands many people don't know any info about it.
http://www.expolanka.com/expo_lanka/international_trading_manufacturing/expolanka_commodities.aspx
http://www.expolanka.com/expo_lanka/international_trading_manufacturing/lanka_premier_foods.aspx
Even Net assets would be very high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
best thing for you is to go for the next AGM (if you are a shareholder) and get clarrifications.
as for company ethics, i doubt JKH will become shareholders in any "shaky activity " companies.
btw, did you apply for the IPO ?
If it's not a subsidiary then you don't have to mention the directorship. In that case there are lots of directors in most of the major listed companies who are also directors in several of the unrelated companies.ccsentha wrote:
There are common director in expolanka holdings and in aberdeen holding (Pvt) Ltd. But in EXPO annual report it is not mentioned. They are mentioning the name of the other companies in which they are directors but they DO NOT TALK ABOUT aberdeen in the annual report
It's not mandatory, but almost every company mentions the other directorship held by their companies, EXPO too have done like that, they have mentioned softlogic, AMSL, ASIR, lanka tiles, vpel, etc.. like that many other companies as their directors are holding positions in those companies too, but they don't mention anything about Aberdeen, when they talk about 3rd party companies and then not mention their associate company it doesn't sound right!!!!Jake Sully wrote:If it's not a subsidiary then you don't have to mention the directorship. In that case there are lots of directors in most of the major listed companies who are also directors in several of the unrelated companies.ccsentha wrote:
There are common director in expolanka holdings and in aberdeen holding (Pvt) Ltd. But in EXPO annual report it is not mentioned. They are mentioning the name of the other companies in which they are directors but they DO NOT TALK ABOUT aberdeen in the annual report
I do agreed with you 100%K.Haputantri wrote:Alchemist & Red, I have no reason to disagree with what you said about human nature of greed. Yes, the whole market economy is driven by greed for profits, but there are laws to obey which separates the human beings from all other beings.
Where laws fail, regulations are enforced by respective authorities. Where regulations are not effective, custioms fill-in the gaps, as a temporary measure and later on, it may be regularised by laws.
Moral and Religious principles are in the background of all laws and regulations. Hence, what-ever loop-hole left behind by laws need to be taken care of by moral & religious principles.
There is nothing wrong with critically examining an event even after 10 years, because those who are new should know the truth and offenders should be taken care of even belatedly irrespective of their status. Remember, Criminal cases have no time bar.
I see similarities between a Pump & Dump exercises and the EXPO IPO issue. Here, the share offer price (which I think not a fair-price) was justified by IPO related advertisements, promotional material, and in getting involved "reputed" companies like JK to instill reliability. Here, the "Fair price" was calculated using conventional means used by accountants all other past events ignored. Even though pre-ipo private placement price was Rs:6.00 per share, which would have had a tremendous influance on the post IPO price, all the pundiths ignored it when recomending the "Fair Price." In fact, the prospectus should have highlighted this price sensitive information under "Risks" also but there was no such statement except a record on the pre-ipo issues separately. This is a delibarate action by the company and the promoters.
Hence, here is a clear case of Pumping the share price at the IPO exercise intending to Dump them on gullible investors, who, of course, according to law, are expected to exercise due deliance (A concept alient to many retailers in this country).
I know one would say that no one forced any one to buy the share (offer & acceptance theory) but the market sentiments at that time was so ir-resistible and many parted with their hard earned money owing to Greed.
If greed is sin, lurring innocent to part with their money using the greed is a sever sin. The regulator has an obligation to look at this Pump & Dump case even belatedly. It has been a very usefull discussion. Thank all members who contributed very professionally.
@ccsentha - again, you miss the point entirely my friend. and your also not making any sense in your argument. read again. also note AR date & transaction date. Just bcos Aberdeen has common directors with EXPO, if there is no related party transactions as at AR date, then no need for disclosure. Their is no need for EXPO to disclose anything about a private unlisted company aberdeen, just bcos of a common shareholding, directorate, if there are no related party transactions, and there may have being none, as at AR date.ccsentha wrote:It's not mandatory, but almost every company mentions the other directorship held by their companies, EXPO too have done like that, they have mentioned softlogic, AMSL, ASIR, lanka tiles, vpel, etc.. like that many other companies as their directors are holding positions in those companies too, but they don't mention anything about Aberdeen, when they talk about 3rd party companies and then not mention their associate company it doesn't sound right!!!!Jake Sully wrote:If it's not a subsidiary then you don't have to mention the directorship. In that case there are lots of directors in most of the major listed companies who are also directors in several of the unrelated companies.ccsentha wrote:
There are common director in expolanka holdings and in aberdeen holding (Pvt) Ltd. But in EXPO annual report it is not mentioned. They are mentioning the name of the other companies in which they are directors but they DO NOT TALK ABOUT aberdeen in the annual report
Thank you Hapu. you are a ethically & morally righteous man. respect.K.Haputantri wrote:Alchemist & Red, I have no reason to disagree with what you said about human nature of greed. Yes, the whole market economy is driven by greed for profits, but there are laws to obey which separates the human beings from all other beings.
Where laws fail, regulations are enforced by respective authorities. Where regulations are not effective, custioms fill-in the gaps, as a temporary measure and later on, it may be regularised by laws.
Moral and Religious principles are in the background of all laws and regulations. Hence, what-ever loop-hole left behind by laws need to be taken care of by moral & religious principles.
There is nothing wrong with critically examining an event even after 10 years, because those who are new should know the truth and offenders should be taken care of even belatedly irrespective of their status. Remember, Criminal cases have no time bar.
I see similarities between a Pump & Dump exercises and the EXPO IPO issue. Here, the share offer price (which I think not a fair-price) was justified by IPO related advertisements, promotional material, and in getting involved "reputed" companies like JK to instill reliability. Here, the "Fair price" was calculated using conventional means used by accountants all other past events ignored. Even though pre-ipo private placement price was Rs:6.00 per share, which would have had a tremendous influance on the post IPO price, all the pundiths ignored it when recomending the "Fair Price." In fact, the prospectus should have highlighted this price sensitive information under "Risks" also but there was no such statement except a record on the pre-ipo issues separately. This is a delibarate action by the company and the promoters.
Hence, here is a clear case of Pumping the share price at the IPO exercise intending to Dump them on gullible investors, who, of course, according to law, are expected to exercise due deliance (A concept alient to many retailers in this country).
I know one would say that no one forced any one to buy the share (offer & acceptance theory) but the market sentiments at that time was so ir-resistible and many parted with their hard earned money owing to Greed.
If greed is sin, lurring innocent to part with their money using the greed is a sever sin. The regulator has an obligation to look at this Pump & Dump case even belatedly. It has been a very usefull discussion. Thank all members who contributed very professionally.
Last edited by The Alchemist on Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Owenr)
You didn't get my point. I'm not talking about the market disclosures. I'm talking about the directors brief description in the annual report. I never said that this is mandatory.The Alchemist wrote:@ccsentha - again, you miss the point entirely my friend. and your also not making any sense in your argument. read again. also note AR date & transaction date. Just bcos Aberdeen has common directors with EXPO, if there is no related party transactions as at AR date, then no need for disclosure. Their is no need for EXPO to disclose anything about a private unlisted company aberdeen, just bcos of a common shareholding, directorate, if there are no related party transactions, and there may have being none, as at AR date.ccsentha wrote:It's not mandatory, but almost every company mentions the other directorship held by their companies, EXPO too have done like that, they have mentioned softlogic, AMSL, ASIR, lanka tiles, vpel, etc.. like that many other companies as their directors are holding positions in those companies too, but they don't mention anything about Aberdeen, when they talk about 3rd party companies and then not mention their associate company it doesn't sound right!!!!Jake Sully wrote:If it's not a subsidiary then you don't have to mention the directorship. In that case there are lots of directors in most of the major listed companies who are also directors in several of the unrelated companies.ccsentha wrote:
There are common director in expolanka holdings and in aberdeen holding (Pvt) Ltd. But in EXPO annual report it is not mentioned. They are mentioning the name of the other companies in which they are directors but they DO NOT TALK ABOUT aberdeen in the annual report
K.Haputantri wrote:Alchemist, you have not properly understood what I said. What is criminal not the prospectus error. It is the intentional use of EXPO IPO for pump & dump which is criminal.
Yes, the word crime was used in my comment on the 7th inadvertantly, but on 8th instant I was referring to your comment on the same day where I dealt with the criminal act of Pump & Dump in detail. Got it?The Alchemist wrote:On thurs 7th Nov at 3.46 pmK.Haputantri wrote:Alchemist, you have not properly understood what I said. What is criminal not the prospectus error. It is the intentional use of EXPO IPO for pump & dump which is criminal.
K.Haputantri wrote:
The following link also usefull.
http://forum.srilankaequity.com/t3352-expo-error-in-prospectus-admitted?highlight=EXPO+IPO
They profited through a loop-hole in SEC regulations but submitting a prospectus without price sensitive info is a crime. If I were the SEC Chairman, I suspend the IPO for three months untill proper prospectus is issued. They should not be allowed to play with public funds like this.
Yes, a pump and dump is a criminal act. to refer to the EXPO IPO as a Pump & Dump has no legal, moral or ethical basis. it is an malicious, arbitrary assumption arrived at with bias & prejudiceK.Haputantri wrote:Yes, the word crime was used in my comment on the 7th inadvertantly, but on 8th instant I was referring to your comment on the same day where I dealt with the criminal act of Pump & Dump in detail. Got it?The Alchemist wrote:On thurs 7th Nov at 3.46 pmK.Haputantri wrote:Alchemist, you have not properly understood what I said. What is criminal not the prospectus error. It is the intentional use of EXPO IPO for pump & dump which is criminal.
K.Haputantri wrote:
The following link also usefull.
http://forum.srilankaequity.com/t3352-expo-error-in-prospectus-admitted?highlight=EXPO+IPO
They profited through a loop-hole in SEC regulations but submitting a prospectus without price sensitive info is a crime. If I were the SEC Chairman, I suspend the IPO for three months untill proper prospectus is issued. They should not be allowed to play with public funds like this.
no i am not double sure. it may be fairly obvious that some shareholders who participated in the private placement (pp) at Rs 6/- sold post ipo and in between pp & ipo in the grey market. but the directors, owners, jkh, carsons etc did not sell. the point is just bcos some shareholders who availed themselves of pp sold, and there was no lock in rule in effect for them then, it is not fair to accuse EXPO of a criminal pump & dump now, as all information relating to pp, ipo, grey market price was well known / disseminated in the market, available in a prospectus, endorsed by managers to the issue (JK who also did not sell there shares obtained at pp), supervised by SEC etc.K.Haputantri wrote:?Are you double sure it was IPO buyers who bought @ Rs:14/= dumped EXPO shares below IPO price and not those who bought @ Rs:6.00 per share.
That is a possibility. Another possibility is, as you said in TJL post, real owners may have been people who are not in the director board but bought pp shares. ?These guys indirectly controle such companies. ?What we actually see is not what is really there. Covert operations every where.The Alchemist wrote:no i am not double sure. it may be fairly obvious that some shareholders who participated in the private placement (pp) at Rs 6/- sold post ipo and in between pp & ipo in the grey market. but the directors, owners, jkh, carsons etc did not sell. the point is just bcos some shareholders who availed themselves of pp sold, and there was no lock in rule in effect for them then, it is not fair to accuse EXPO of a criminal pump & dump now, as all information relating to pp, ipo, grey market price was well known / disseminated in the market, available in a prospectus, endorsed by managers to the issue (JK who also did not sell there shares obtained at pp), supervised by SEC etc.K.Haputantri wrote:?Are you double sure it was IPO buyers who bought @ Rs:14/= dumped EXPO shares below IPO price and not those who bought @ Rs:6.00 per share.
The excuse given in this thread is that EXPO owners are god fearing so they will not do anything bad:twisted:Zaiban wrote:
How come they didn't keep the profitable freight operation in Afghanistan/ Pakistan etc with the listed company and instead transferred it to Aberdeen Holdings
Dear jiggy wuteva.... i don't want to bring a religious debate here.. be professional and stick to the point...Jiggysaurus wrote:The excuse given in this thread is that EXPO owners are god fearing so they will not do anything bad:twisted:Zaiban wrote:
How come they didn't keep the profitable freight operation in Afghanistan/ Pakistan etc with the listed company and instead transferred it to Aberdeen Holdings
Going by that twisted logic the next time an IPO comes out we'll have to check the god fearance/ non god fearance of the owners before deciding whether to invest or not.
Maybe the chemistry people can tell us, how much does the fear of god add to the net asset value?
Zaiban - ok noted. you seem to know a lot more than i do. sorry if you feel i misled anyone. it was certainly not intentional.Zaiban wrote:Alchemist... u have been misleading us right through out
Even though LPF was divested and maybe making losses...
Expolanka Commodities (Pvt) Ltd is a valuable company check its ownership of properties based on the 2012 annual report-
Expolanka Commodities Pvt Ltd - Rs. 74,517,200
No 11A Milepost Avenue,Kollupitiya , Colombo 3
Expolanka Commodities Pvt Ltd- Rs. 76,693,000
No. 228, Keyzer Street, Pettah, Colombo 11
Expolanka Commodities Pvt Ltd -Rs. 20,346,875
Kumara Wanni Palatha, Puttalam
Expolanka Commodities Pvt Ltd -Rs. 198,632,916
No 245/51 Avisawella Road, Orugodawatte, Kolonnawa
Total property value based on annual report:- Over Rs. 370million
I have been reading all your posts.... you may claim not to be working for Expolanka but I am sure you have vested interests through family/ friendship or whatever...
Isn't it funny that they didn't separate the valuation for each company?? Just a blanket Rs. 550million... with no details whatsoever..... what was the basis of valuation?? NBV??? earnings???
What about on going business of the company??
I also know they transfer companies like this when ever they feel like claiming it is at fair value... when it is actually not...they have done this in other listed companies they control...figure out which other companies had similar transfers to private entities...
btw we all know Aberdeen holdings transferred all the more profitable Expo companies just before IPO... but showed the profits of the company in the prospectus... to make sure Rs. 14 is a valuable price to buy into the IPO...
How come they didn't keep the profitable freight operation in Afghanistan/ Pakistan etc with the listed company and instead transferred it to Aberdeen Holdings
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