Amãna Bank goes for IPO and listing on the Bourse

Zaiban, thanks for the clarification. Ur correct.. we call it profit for sure.. I was just trying to figure out whether its not prohibited in Islam cuz in Amana's belief's it said "We believe that one should not gain at the expense of another"

When u sell someone with a profit, u profit at his expense cuz u bought it abt 10-20% less.. and he bought it for a higher price right? So I thot this was also not ok in Islamic terms..

I've not pulled ur nerves I guess..

smallville wrote:We can see this getting over-subscribed

Chinwi wrote:මොකටද ගහ වටේ කැරකෙන්නෙ ?
මොකවත් නිසා නෙවි මෙහි තියෙන්නෙ M ෆැක්ටර් හෙවත් මුස්ලිම් අය ගේ මිලදීගැනීම. ඉස්ලාම් දහමට අනුව කෙරෙන බැංකුවක් බැවින් එම ආකර්ශනය සාධාරනයි.

M factor? More like a C factor IMO

Even the first tranche of 214 million shares is still not over subscribed even after two days, shows the danger of this seetu scheme IPO that even those who believe in this (whatever) system and law haven't fully subscribed to this IPO.
Maybe the M's and C's will do a hat collection today and at least get the first tranche over subscribed. After all this is a "holy" bank catering to the beliefs, laws and needs of one specific group.

I think that, what is sin in lelegious parlar is not merely "profit" taking, but getting "undue profits" leading to unjust enrichment. Unjust enrichment is not legal even under common law. I think, it is this principle that is intepreted diferently in certain relegions.

The story of Merchant of Venice shows how innocent parties to commercial contracts were being fleeced to death in good old days.

Prohibition of taking interest in Islam may be a social requirement during that period of time when high rates were charged by money lenders.

However, when lending money is regulated and also subject to sever competion, evils of money lending disappeared but relegious laws remain as it is. This is why some look at it critically unable to cmprehend its rationale at present.

Islamic bankers, unable to change relegious laws, have adjusted to current situation by replacing the word "interest" with the word "profit sharing". However, they will find it difficult to compete with fixed interest paying banks unless they are able to give away a share of profit at least in par with or over the prevailing fixed interest rates. Hence, their success will depend on their capacity to earn profits to keep depositors happy. Its just my analysis.

One problem I really see in this is its an attempt to overcome some obstacles of conventional banking system.

Depositors are not depositing with the intention of getting interest but profit.

There is a clear difference between interest and profit than some just think they are both same.

Remember Islamic Financial Instruments carry the term Profit/Loss bearing.

When you run a business you cant always be assured of profit. The Finance PLC is making losses still people deposit money because they pay interest. Suppose a finance house or a bank following Islamic finance falls into loss. Thus the depositors must willingly come to make deposit to bear loss.

Suppose I ve deposited 1 Million in The Finance PLC, still i may get the agreed interest even though the company is making losses.

Lets assume that same 1 Million i deposited under Islamic Finance in return I may get lesser value than I ve deposited when the institute is making losses.

Who will willingly go for losses irrespective of his religious faith.

Now dont tell me that Islamic banks only make profit. Learn about Islamic Bank of Baharain.

I believe that the first day information of successful subscription rate is just a marketing game.

K.Haputantri wrote:

Prohibition of taking interest in Islam may be a social requirement during that period of time when high rates were charged by money lenders.

Stone age systems and laws prohibited interest because stone age peeples has no concept or idea of INFLATION.

Most middle eastern systems like Judaism also prohibited interest (amongst their group at least) because these systems were designed/created for stone age life.

yellow knife wrote:

Now dont tell me that Islamic banks only make profit. Learn about Islamic Bank of Baharain.

 

Why go to Bahrain? Even the wonderful "holy" Amana Bank is making losses upto September of 2013. So in theory those who have savings (or whatever Arabic nonsense term used) account should get less than what they deposited in 2013. Deposit 100 on Jan 1 2013 in Amana Bank and you will get 90 on Dec 31 2013 if the bank losses continue (this is why I call this IPO a seetu scheme.

yellow knife wrote:One problem I really see in this is its an attempt to overcome some obstacles of conventional banking system.

? Can you elaborate on obstacles of conventional banking.

[quote="Depositors are not depositing with the intention of getting interest but profit.

There is a clear difference between interest and profit than some just think they are both same.

Remember Islamic Financial Instruments carry the term Profit/Loss bearing.  [/quote]

I agree with you on this point and its like buying shares in that bank. ?Do you see any other difference in here.

K.Haputantri wrote:

yellow knife wrote:One problem I really see in this is its an attempt to overcome some obstacles of conventional banking system.

? Can you elaborate on obstacles of conventional banking.

[quote="Depositors are not depositing with the intention of getting interest but profit.

There is a clear difference between interest and profit than some just think they are both same.

Remember Islamic Financial Instruments carry the term Profit/Loss bearing.  

I agree with you on this point and its like buying shares in that bank. ?Do you see any other difference in here.[/quote]

in conventional banking the relationship between the bank and the customer is a debtor and creditor relationship...

while in Islamic banking that is not the case.... there is always an economic transaction... involved

E.g:- in conventional banking...for example u want Rs. 1 million to start a business ... the bank gives u Rs. 1 million and u have to pay them 20% interest annually...whether u make a profit or not..

in Islamic banking... u want money to start a business.....the bank will come in as an investor and share a percentage of your profits... when you can pay of the bank's capital.. u can stop paying them a % of your profits...

this is just one structure...

alternately lets say u want to buy a house.....

conventionally gives u a loan and u pay an interest.... until u pay off capital.... even if the house doesn't exist.... get damaged... destroyed etc...

in islamic banking system....the bank jointly buys a house with u... and u pay them a rental in proportion to their ownership of the house.... if house gets destroyed ....both parties lose...


thereby if u see something common in the islamic system is tht it shares the burden of losses and shares success of profits... thus not bogging down the customer to pay interest no matter wut the economic situation in his business or house is....

in conventional u don't need an asset or any kind of economic development to take place... u just pay me my interest like shylock wants it... no matter wut happens??? which system is fairer and just... make ur own decision....

Jiggysaurus wrote:

yellow knife wrote:

Now dont tell me that Islamic banks only make profit. Learn about Islamic Bank of Baharain.

 

Why go to Bahrain? Even the wonderful "holy" Amana Bank is making losses upto September of 2013. So in theory those who have savings (or whatever Arabic nonsense term used) account should get less than what they deposited in 2013. Deposit 100 on Jan 1 2013 in Amana Bank and you will get 90 on Dec 31 2013 if the bank losses continue (this is why I call this IPO a seetu scheme.

dear jiggy if anything is prehistoric its your name "jiggysaurus"

secondly u haven't been in the forum for a while... and there has been decent discussion and civilized debating...if u wanna grow up pleez do.... if not keep ur rude... barbaric... pre-historic ...un civilized....comments to ur self....

i really feel sad for the parents who bought u up ... and the skool u went to... they shud hav tawt u betta.... u dont see anyone else in the forum speaking and commenting the way u do.... can't u have a civilized conversation atleast once... do  always have to cll ppl different from u by derogatory names

Zaiban wrote: if not keep ur rude... barbaric... pre-historic ...un civilized....comments to ur self....
... do  always have to cll ppl different from u by derogatory names

When talking about a barbaric, pre-historic, uncivilized cult or belief system the members of said cult or belief system will get their feelings hurt and rant and rave (as we see in this thread).

If you can't handle criticism and questions about dangerous (whatever) and stone age belief systems and their related IPOs then you should stick to Afghan and Saudi forums where no one is allowed to question your (whatever) and belief system.

Jiggysaurus wrote:

Zaiban wrote: if not keep ur rude... barbaric... pre-historic ...un civilized....comments to ur self....
... do  always have to cll ppl different from u by derogatory names

When talking about a barbaric, pre-historic, uncivilized cult or belief system the members of said cult or belief system will get their feelings hurt and rant and rave (as we see in this thread).

If you can't handle criticism and questions about dangerous (whatever) and stone age belief systems and their related IPOs then you should stick to Afghan and Saudi forums where no one is allowed to question your (whatever) and belief system.

thre is a manner u say stuff... not just wag ur tongue and bark like a dog... i see lots of ppl disagreeing wit islamic finance in this forum.. but they speak respectfully...

yellow knife wrote:

Suppose I ve deposited 1 Million in The Finance PLC, still i may get the agreed interest even though the company is making losses.

Lets assume that same 1 Million i deposited under Islamic Finance in return I may get lesser value than I ve deposited when the institute is making losses.

Who will willingly go for losses irrespective of his religious faith.

Now dont tell me that Islamic banks only make profit. Learn about Islamic Bank of Baharain.

I believe that the first day information of successful subscription rate is just a marketing game.

OK.. to be honest, I think TFC is trying to come up bearing its losses but it can take many years of convincing ppl to get there. On the other hand, if you put 1 Mil in a loss making company, u may get interest, but would you be able to get the capital right away when you want it? U probably wont.. That's the problem investing in a troubled company.. But if you invest your money in a good bank, u can take both without any trouble, only thing is if the sum invested is high, they might take a day or two to release it.

Then again, what you say abt this profit sharing case it also tru.. Nobody wants to lose their hard earned money..

I think there are plenty of avenues to take before one invest in a fairly complicated system.

Zaiban wrote:

thre is a manner u say stuff... not just wag ur tongue and bark like a dog... i see lots of ppl disagreeing wit islamic finance in this forum.. but they speak respectfully...

Can I oink like a pig?

Why should I or anyone else speak respectfully to a bunch of loonies or crackpots who don't respect other religions? Just look at the posts in this thread done by you, pandithaya, Hanoi man and glwking (personal attacks and attempts to impose censorship)

If your (whatever) wants respect kindly make sure that your peeples respect other religions in turn.

Jiggysaurus wrote:

Zaiban wrote:

thre is a manner u say stuff... not just wag ur tongue and bark like a dog... i see lots of ppl disagreeing wit islamic finance in this forum.. but they speak respectfully...

Can I oink like a pig?

Why should I or anyone else speak respectfully to a bunch of loonies or crackpots who don't respect other religions? Just look at the posts in this thread done by you, pandithaya, Hanoi man and glwking (personal attacks and attempts to impose censorship)

If your (whatever) wants respect kindly make sure that your peeples respect other religions in turn.

i dont kno who thse other ppl r.... but u r the only one provoking others to get pissed off...
i dont see anyone else insulting any other religion or race in the forum the way u do.. please show proof...

First tranche is still under subscribed.

http://www.cse.lk/cmt/upload_cse_announcements/5251386933255_.pdf

Good that most normal people have stayed away from an over priced dangerous seetu scheme IPO.

In the Name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful

Let’s first remind ourselves, that our Prophet (peace be upon him), the single most perfect man in history, had the following done to him

People physically assaulted him.
People threw stones at him.
People threw dirty intestines on him whilst he was praying.
People threw their dirty garbage on him
People abused him
People killed his loved ones
People tried to give him poison in his food
They laughed at him, Mocked at him
They made fun of Him
He lost His two teeth in the Battle of Uhd

Has someone ever thrown stones at you? Have you ever had dirty garbage thrown over your head? Yet somehow our aggressive reactions would lead someone to believe as if someone has actually done this?
So the question is, whom should we follow when something like this happens?

Let me give some examples. For people who are reading this and are into IT and Sports. If you wanted a successful IT business then you will follow the careers of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, as they have done incredibly well in the IT field. If perhaps you wanted to become a professional footballer, you might follow how Cesc Fabregas or Messi play, as again they are among the best footballers in the world.
So what is our end goal? It’s obviously to reach Jannah and the way to do this is to try to follow the life of our Prophet (peace be upon him) If we try to study him, act like him, perform the Sunnah then we have a good chance of achieving our goal.

When someone insults Islam or our Prophet (peace be upon him), or Allah, of course we all hurt, but what I witnessed a few days ago, was perhaps worse. A barrage of abuse from Muslims to the offenders swearing and insulting back. Did our Prophet act like this? Of course not, so by acting in this way are we really defending our faith or weakening it? I feel we are weakening it, we are showing just how weak we can be.

Did our Prophet lose such control? Engage in such filthy language? We all know certain people hate unconditionally, and in this case, it was a group of young teenagers who were spouting such hate, but we also know, or should know that many non Muslims respect Islam, respect Muslims, but when they see us defending our faith in such a violent aggressive manner, what must they think?

Once when the Prophet was being physically abused in Taif, he was bleeding from having stones thrown at him, Angel Jibraeel came to him and said the Angels of the Mountains can crush these ignorant people between the mountains, should you wish O Muhammad.

Bleeding from head to toe and battered and exhausted, the Prophet (peace be upon him) was faced with a choice; should he or should he not seek to destroy the people who had just humiliated him by having their children chase him out of town while throwing stones at him? And for what crime? All he had wanted to do was convey the message of the One God to His creation and seek benefit his own people.

However, although they hurt him, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) looked beyond his own wounds and forgave them, replying to the angel of the mountains he said,
‘No, do not destroy them, for I hope that Allah will bring out of their offspring people who worship Him alone without associating any partner with Him in worship.
What a beautiful excellent response. Look at the humility. The control.

The way you respond to insults has an impact on the actual image of Islam. So lose this anger, lose the bad language and become an advert for Islam. Ignore the ignorant who hate unconditionally, if someone criticises Islam and you feel you can have an intelligent conversation with them, then do so politely, they will think so differently of you, even if they don’t agree, they will respect the way you have conducted yourself.

You will promote Islam much more effectively this way if you control yourself.
That’s real faith.

Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala says what means in the Quran,
“Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant”.

He subhanahu wa ta’ala also says what means,
“And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: ‘To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant.’

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said
“The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger.”(Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 73 :: Hadith 135)


............ thus please forgive me dear jiggy and everyone else if I have hurt your feelings

Zaiban wrote:

E.g:- in conventional banking...for example u want Rs. 1 million to start a business ... the bank gives u Rs. 1 million and u have to pay them 20% interest annually...whether u make a profit or not..

in Islamic banking... u want money to start a business.....the bank will come in as an investor and share a percentage of your profits... when you can pay of the bank's capital.. u can stop paying them a % of your profits...

this is just one structure...

alternately lets say u want to buy a house.....

conventionally gives u a loan and u pay an interest.... until u pay off capital.... even if the house doesn't exist.... get damaged... destroyed etc...

in islamic banking system....the bank jointly buys a house with u... and u pay them a rental in proportion to their ownership of the house.... if house gets destroyed ....both parties lose...


thereby if u see something common in the islamic system is tht it shares the burden of losses and shares success of profits... thus not bogging down the customer to pay interest no matter wut the economic situation in his business or house is....

in conventional u don't need an asset or any kind of economic development to take place... u just pay me my interest like shylock wants it... no matter wut happens??? which system is fairer and just... make ur own decision....

The way u put this, Islamic banking cares about the customer.. So it has an advantage when ppl's emotions are attached to it.
But lets think deeply how a financial system works, they lend money for a time period and what they get in return is what u pay in that period as interest. That cuts their costs of operating the bank. Wages for employees, expenses of maintaining the building, vehicles, etc.. will also have to be borne by the bank.
Than they take deposits of your money upon agreeable rate per year. That's what you get in return for your investment. Banks invest your money in other instruments that attract more interest than they pay you (may be riskier) in order for them to pay you, your promised interest.

But if Islamic banking is all about sharing the profits or take your burden out, then if an entrepreneur's quest goes wrong, the banks losses everything. And if bank does a lot of investments like this, the bank itself may have a clear path of bankruptcy.
Needless to say, the bank may take up projects after careful inspection and even supervision would go to make sure the profitability of the business its vested interested in but who can say things might not go wrong? Who can say things that happen to CIFL, Vanik cannot happen to any other entity. The ppl inside can lead the entities to the ground or heaven.. Its all in the ppl who manage the entity..

Yes in conventional banking, you are expected to pay back every penny u owned them regardless of your state of business, u gotta pay.. And Islamic system bears the loss. But both systems can go wrong..

My opinion is that Islamic view is in good faith but doesn't it hinder the sustainability of the bank? For example, if some projects go wrong, it can negatively effect and these effects can even be irreversible. Yes it happen to both systems but the former has more law enforcement where the ppl who default payments can get sued, asked to pay up by whatever means. And these actions might fear others who purposely take loans an default while the latter wipes it off as a loss.

In conclusion, Islamic system is in good faith but I have a doubt in long term sustainability. Sustainability is what we all want regardless of the race, ethnicity, religion, et..... Especially with Islamic banking, the bank needs to stay with the ppl.. What if the bank's situation worse due to the reasons we discussed?

smallville wrote:

Zaiban wrote:

E.g:- in conventional banking...for example u want Rs. 1 million to start a business ... the bank gives u Rs. 1 million and u have to pay them 20% interest annually...whether u make a profit or not..

in Islamic banking... u want money to start a business.....the bank will come in as an investor and share a percentage of your profits... when you can pay of the bank's capital.. u can stop paying them a % of your profits...

this is just one structure...

alternately lets say u want to buy a house.....

conventionally gives u a loan and u pay an interest.... until u pay off capital.... even if the house doesn't exist.... get damaged... destroyed etc...

in islamic banking system....the bank jointly buys a house with u... and u pay them a rental in proportion to their ownership of the house.... if house gets destroyed ....both parties lose...


thereby if u see something common in the islamic system is tht it shares the burden of losses and shares success of profits... thus not bogging down the customer to pay interest no matter wut the economic situation in his business or house is....

in conventional u don't need an asset or any kind of economic development to take place... u just pay me my interest like shylock wants it... no matter wut happens??? which system is fairer and just... make ur own decision....

The way u put this, Islamic banking cares about the customer.. So it has an advantage when ppl's emotions are attached to it.
But lets think deeply how a financial system works, they lend money for a time period and what they get in return is what u pay in that period as interest. That cuts their costs of operating the bank. Wages for employees, expenses   of maintaining the building, vehicles, etc.. will also have to be borne by the bank.
Than they take deposits of your money upon agreeable rate per year. That's what you get in return for your investment. Banks invest your money in other instruments that attract more interest than they pay you (may be riskier) in order for them to pay you, your promised interest.

But if Islamic banking is all about sharing the profits or take your burden out, then if an entrepreneur's quest goes wrong, the banks losses everything. And if bank does a lot of investments like this, the bank itself may have a clear path of bankruptcy.
Needless to say, the bank may take up projects after careful inspection and even supervision would go to make sure the profitability of the business its vested interested in but who can say things might not go wrong? Who can say things that happen to CIFL, Vanik cannot happen to any other entity. The ppl inside can lead the entities to the ground or heaven.. Its all in the ppl who manage the entity..

Yes in conventional banking, you are expected to pay back every penny u owned them regardless of your state of business, u gotta pay.. And Islamic system bears the loss. But both systems can go wrong..  

My opinion is that Islamic view is in good faith but doesn't it hinder the sustainability of the bank? For example, if some projects go wrong, it can negatively effect and these effects can even be irreversible. Yes it happen to both systems but the former has more law enforcement where the ppl who default payments can get sued, asked to pay up by whatever means. And these actions might fear others who purposely take loans an default while the latter wipes it off as a loss.

In conclusion, Islamic system is in good faith but I have a doubt in long term sustainability. Sustainability is what we all want regardless of the race, ethnicity, religion, et..... Especially with Islamic banking, the bank needs to stay with the ppl.. What if the bank's situation worse due to the reasons we discussed?

a higher cost of financing... covers situations of non payment.... or destruction of assets... further businesses and customers payment ability is scrutinized more closely...

Islamic financing is a tad more expensive in order to maintain profitability

further.... takaful or islamic insurance is also there in worst case scenarios...

finally i dont think MR would recommend islamic finance in last years budget speech.... if there were serious sustainability issues...

Zaiban wrote:

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said
“The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger.”(Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 73 :: Hadith 135)


............ thus please forgive me dear jiggy and everyone else if I have hurt your feelings

Exactly what I expected from a dangerous stone age belief system.

Since you are quoting stuff maybe you can explain the dangers of a system that does and preaches the following (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/082-sbt.php)

"Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. "
(Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 82 :: Hadith 794)

For those with sensitive feelings, i'm only countering Zainab's quotations and showing how dangerous stone age beleifs can be. (My quotation is directly taken from the same place as Zainab's quote)

Jiggy, I'm pissed off with your attitude now.. U need to learn how to live in harmony in a multi-cultural forum where we exchange our ideas, beliefs..
Put yourself in the shoes of a person u accuse. You would not give up your beliefs easily for whatever others say, would you? Similarly, others would not and counter argue too..
If we dont like our races, religions, etc be questioned for old, myth or whatever the ppl can bring in to throw stones, we certainly should not hurt the beliefs of other races, religions as well. If we lose our temper in answering them, they would reply in same tone and the discussions can get ugly as it proceeds.
So when discussions of sensitive nature go on, be mindful of not letting ur anger proceeds your judgement.
Ppl from many cultures, races, ethnicity represent this forum. If we dont like the attitudes, views of others, we still have no choice but to bear it. We should think 10 times before commenting and press that "send" button..
I'd also iterate that, constructive criticism towards a discussion is healthy and will be allowed in good faith to explore more of the subject being discussed but zero tolerance for hate speech or hatred.

Cool are we??

smallville wrote:Jiggy, I'm pissed off with your attitude now.. U need to learn how to live in harmony in a multi-cultural forum where we exchange our ideas, beliefs..
Put yourself in the shoes of a person u accuse. You would not give up your beliefs easily for whatever others say, would you? Similarly, others would not and counter argue too..
If we dont like our races, religions, etc be questioned for old, myth or whatever the ppl can bring in to throw stones, we certainly should not hurt the beliefs of other races, religions as well. If we lose our temper in answering them, they would reply in same tone and the discussions can get ugly as it proceeds.
So when discussions of sensitive nature go on, be mindful of not letting ur anger proceeds your judgement.
Ppl from many cultures, races, ethnicity represent this forum. If we dont like the attitudes, views of others, we still have no choice but to bear it. We should think 10 times before commenting and press that "send" button..
I'd also iterate that, constructive criticism towards a discussion is healthy and will be allowed in good faith to explore more of the subject being discussed but zero tolerance for hate speech or hatred.

Cool are we??

A comment was made about the single most perfect man in history, i'm countering that comment.
If the post about perfection is deleted i'll be happy to delete my post countering the perfection argument.

But that is beside the point of this thread which is to highlight a dangerous IPO.

It's Zainab's posts that are dragging the thread in a different way and I'm merely responding.

smallville wrote:Jiggy, I'm pissed off with your attitude now.. U need to learn how to live in harmony in a multi-cultural forum where we exchange our ideas, beliefs..
Put yourself in the shoes of a person u accuse. You would not give up your beliefs easily for whatever others say, would you? Similarly, others would not and counter argue too..
If we dont like our races, religions, etc be questioned for old, myth or whatever the ppl can bring in to throw stones, we certainly should not hurt the beliefs of other races, religions as well. If we lose our temper in answering them, they would reply in same tone and the discussions can get ugly as it proceeds.
So when discussions of sensitive nature go on, be mindful of not letting ur anger proceeds your judgement.
Ppl from many cultures, races, ethnicity represent this forum. If we dont like the attitudes, views of others, we still have no choice but to bear it. We should think 10 times before commenting and press that "send" button..
I'd also iterate that, constructive criticism towards a discussion is healthy and will be allowed in good faith to explore more of the subject being discussed but zero tolerance for hate speech or hatred.

Cool are we??

Yes we are cool... hats off to you smallville... no personal grudges with anyone....

getting back to the topic....

i was speaking to the lawyer's who handled the non payment cases of LOLC Islamic and LB Finance Islamic unit.... he is a devout christian btw...

the non payment cases in the Islamic unit is much lesser than the conventional unit... further due to the higher cost of financing as explained above... profitability is higher....

think about LOLC for a minute... they only get into a business if it is profitable... they don't care two hoots about BBS...ACJU or anyone... just profits...

don't u think they being in this business is a sign in it self.... i think we shud start opening our eyes a bit more... and be faced with reality sometimes... be open to different systems and methods.... if u don't like it don't invest in it......... after all this is the democratic country...

Jiggysaurus wrote:

smallville wrote:Jiggy, I'm pissed off with your attitude now.. U need to learn how to live in harmony in a multi-cultural forum where we exchange our ideas, beliefs..
Put yourself in the shoes of a person u accuse. You would not give up your beliefs easily for whatever others say, would you? Similarly, others would not and counter argue too..
If we dont like our races, religions, etc be questioned for old, myth or whatever the ppl can bring in to throw stones, we certainly should not hurt the beliefs of other races, religions as well. If we lose our temper in answering them, they would reply in same tone and the discussions can get ugly as it proceeds.
So when discussions of sensitive nature go on, be mindful of not letting ur anger proceeds your judgement.
Ppl from many cultures, races, ethnicity represent this forum. If we dont like the attitudes, views of others, we still have no choice but to bear it. We should think 10 times before commenting and press that "send" button..
I'd also iterate that, constructive criticism towards a discussion is healthy and will be allowed in good faith to explore more of the subject being discussed but zero tolerance for hate speech or hatred.

Cool are we??

A comment was made about the single most perfect man in history, i'm countering that comment.
If the post about perfection is deleted i'll be happy to delete my post countering the perfection argument.

But that is beside the point of this thread which is to highlight a dangerous IPO.

It's Zainab's posts that are dragging the thread in a different way and I'm merely responding.

this is my opinion...

if u don't think so... don't subscribe to it...

just move on...

Zaiban wrote:

this is my opinion...

if u don't think so... don't subscribe to it...

just move on...

Then let your quote and my counter quote remain so that normal people can read and come to an opinion as well.

We can just move on to discussions about dangers of the Amana IPO and system.

Re Zaiban & smalville’s conversation,
 
What I understood was, the system has some compassion towards the persons who need money to fulfill their needs. In conventional banking, the system managers think they are safe when they get promised return. There is no concern about the situations faced by the borrower.  
In the long run,  Islamic financial system may thrive because both parties are building together. In the practical world there is big risk because both can go down. Borrowers’ action affect directly towards the stability of the bank than in conventional system.   
 
Hence, I think the owners of a such bank ( investors who buy the shares ) should also
have same compassion (or religious feeling)  towards the people who use their money and understand the monitory risk involved with their investment.
 

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About teachings of 1000 years old religions or cults or any gathering ....

I think you can see both good and bad lines in any book.
Even Some basic teachings were done to satisfy or gather people lived in different environments than now.  They had no knowledge or brain to question the preacher. Good and bad also depend on time and place. 
We are just believing things told by somebody. 

We have to select what good for us and live peacefully in this environment. You can't go back in time and practice everything told in old aged books. Because some verses are not meant for us living in this more developed society.

Zaiban wrote:

a higher cost of financing... covers situations of non payment.... or destruction of assets... further businesses and customers payment ability is scrutinized more closely...

Islamic financing is a tad more expensive in order to maintain profitability

further.... takaful or islamic insurance is also there in worst case scenarios...

finally i dont think MR would recommend islamic finance in last years budget speech.... if there were serious sustainability issues...

It would do but many closely managed companies even have gone blank in years due to acts of vicious ppl.. Can Islamic insurance cover all in case of bankruptcy? In that case even conventional banking systems would have many avenues in safeguarding their wealth, but why fail?

MR must be capitalizing on a need by Muslim community.. After all, Islamic finance also was in demand after many other banks touched it before Amana. Amana is just a 100% pure fit. Looking in to the aspects of what other communities need is also a necessity in a country to live in peace n harmony. In addition, the ruler should have such values too.

still doesn't explain why Amana Bank deserves a premium to other conventional banks

npp wrote:still doesn't explain why Amana Bank deserves a premium to other conventional banks

an IPO... is an offering... u don't like it... don't accept it....

I think it is a bit too high my self... so i ain't subscribing...

i kno this management and company inside out.... my take on the IPO is tht... this share is not a good share to trade... however on a 5 to 10 year horizon... i am expecting an above average return... u just gotta hold it.... don't expect an LHCL price hike overnight ....


doesn't mean ppl shud insult other ppl'z religions... like wut jiggy is doing....

Jiggy, whether its the perfections or imperfections, we're talking about the IPO.. So just ignore anything else like the rest of us and contribute only to the discussion of Islamic finance and Amana.

Whatever the teachings in stone age, if applicable to us, if we see good in it, take it.. If those theories, teachings have been shaped modifications to the old literacy is seen, its cuz more ppl have put many hrs to take good outta it and thought of ways to make it better for everyone. So we may be in a better position in those.
But ppl are a curious breed, we all have right to take what we want and ignore what we dont want. Still there will be ppl to grab what we ignore..

Even stock markets operate under this principle.. I grad good shares, u grab better shares, someone else will get the best of all them all and still there will be ppl to grab the rest of the crap.

Zaiban wrote:

npp wrote:still doesn't explain why Amana Bank deserves a premium to other conventional banks

an IPO... is an offering... u don't like it... don't accept it....

I think it is a bit too high my self... so i ain't subscribing...

i kno this management and company inside out.... my take on the IPO is tht... this share is not a good share to trade... however on a 5 to 10 year horizon... i am expecting an above average return... u just gotta hold it.... don't expect an LHCL price hike overnight ....


doesn't mean ppl shud insult other ppl'z religions... like wut jiggy is doing....

From the beginning I was asking the following:
* How the business works
* How would you value it, and
* What is the valuation that one would give

I'm not looking at what brokers are saying. I wanted some discussions.

To hold it for 5-10 years you really need not buy from an IPO. One can always buy from the secondary market when (and if) it starts to trade below IPO price. Those who have vested interest in order to see that the required money is raised, will apply for the IPO. Mind you, this is the first of its kind in CSE.

If you strip the "offensive" things that Jiggy apparently is on about, he is basically warning people that investing in the said IPO is not recommended. One cannot ignore due to what happened after the previous over valued IPOs